Although I didn’t intend to when I wrote the entry, I stayed out of the conversation this time. The comments quickly turned a corner from the subjects I originally covered, and I didn’t want to derail the conversation.

This is clearly an awkward issue for some people to discuss, be they men or women. Some would rather sweep the topic under the rug and pretend it didn’t exist. Others think it should be a non-issue. I not sure either view gets us anywhere.

Thanks to everyone who participated and poured out their thougts on the topic. May the dialogues continue and change and actions ensue.

Few would argue with the proposal that most influential people in history have been men. If you were able to subject history√¢?‚Ñ¢s shapers to an IQ test would men score higher than women? I say yes. Men are more competitive and driven than women and this shows in areas at the forefront of progress, such as programming as well as in idle pastimes.

Admittedly, society has something to do with it. Women are encouraged to take an interest in fashion, men in gadgets. But society is shaped by people, and people by their fundamental genetic program. If boys were discouraged from an early age from interest in math and engineering would these fields be dominated within a generation by women? I doubt it.

So does a woman have to surrender her femininity to become a programmer? Most programmers would say, and I would agree, that on average the women in this field have less typical female qualities than most women. Yet I can assure you not all of us female programmers and designers have forgotten how to be women. Some of us are fashion savvy, elegant, individuals who have crossed over into this weird computer world of 3am programming and thick glasses.

So where am I headed with this, you ask?

In the post-feminist era there are no remaining boundaries that keep women out of any profession. Changes in laws and business practices, changes in educational policy and sweeping changes in society√¢?‚Ñ¢s view of gender roles have opened all fields of endeavor to women willing to enter them. In a tight, competitive field such as programming where talent and intelligence are valued, women who can make the cut will always be welcome. So what is keeping the women out? I would ask the women themselves.

So you ask where are all the women? Well frankly I don√¢?‚Ñ¢t know. Does such a foreign new profession intimidate them? Maybe. Are they more comfortable in trades traditionally pursued by women? Probably. I think really it comes down to this: most women are not cut out to be in such an aggressive, criticizing, forward thinking field. Perhaps one day they will be and will make the inroads other women already have in areas such as medicine and mathematics.

Thanks for opening up this issue again – it’s good to read the comments that come from these discussions.

Not passing any judgment– just curious.

No, I don’t think you are sexist at all. I will agree though, most of the designers and authors that I’ve met and/or read are male.

Not sure if it’s because women just don’t speak out as much or if it’s because women designing with web standards are few and far between.

Your comment Doug got me to thinking (about you using men for the redesigns) and I agree with you. If you knew their (the males) talent and knew you could trust them to get the job done, why not use them? I would do the same if I were in the situation. Only I’m a female and I would be calling mostly males because of the same reason though.

You talk about meeting people from all over…I have to just say, that the best thing I did was to meet one of my teachers/mentors. He is in Germany, I’m in America…yet I would call on him anytime/anyday if I ever needed help. Oh wait…I do that already. ;-) Nothing wrong with sticking with those that you know, as long as you don’t shut out those that you haven’t had opportunity to meet yet. From your article, you are trying to meet a more diverse group of people. Here’s to you meeting many more! We may be few and far between, but us females are here. :-)

Start something new.

How many people knew of Dave Shea before CSS Zen Garden?
Not me.

Lycos is shoveling the dirt over Webmonkey. Is there something out there which serves the same function and is as approachable and fun?

Are there any sites oriented to learning good design for kids? for teens? for seniors?

It seems like the things this “club” has in common are teaching and evangelizing. Who can you reach that they aren’t?

I’ve been reading lots lately on Web standards, I validate my code, I got rid of my tables, just like Zeldman, Eric Meyer and all the boys are saying.

I submitted several of my sites of CSS Vault and CSS beauty and they were all rejected. Is it because I’m a woman? I don’t hink so. I think I’m just not in the club. I think that the fact that the club is dominated by a bunch of guys is just a coincidence.

Perhaps if there were more prominent female web designers out there, then there would be more of us. When I think of CSS and Web Design immediately I think of Zeldman, Meyer, Cederholm, and Shea – all men. Do I feel gender plays a role in web design? Absolutely not. Could I name any female web designers as _prominent_ as Zeldman or Meyer? Not off the top of my head.

I don’t feel that men have any advantage over women when it comes to designing with standards- it’s a matter of sitting down and learning how to do it. Some women may not want to stare at code all day, but some of us don’t mind it one bit. I agree with what has been said about female web designers not actively seeking recognition, and I feel that extends to most computer-related things. You don’t hear much about women using Linux, but there are a heck of a lot of us that do that too!

Anyway, as I am still getting my feet wet in web design, my post probably has no merit, but as a woman I feel that I will be able to design just as well as any man- once I learn all the ins and outs. Afterall, isn’t design about conceiving an idea, planning for certain goals and functions to be met, and then implementing it for all to see?

You say there may not be a lot of women who are good at CSS and can write on it and have the inclination to do this. You put the onus on the women to make the positive moves, when I and others are saying that recognition of women contributors is a responsibility of both men and women — and it’s difficult to want to continut to contribute when you do not receive any recognition. I believe, strongly, that women do not receive the same recognition for the same work as the men. Pure and simple.

But I also have a feeling you’ve not read what a lot of people have written here. If you did, you would not have ended your note with a thanks to the guys for allowing us women rant all over their blogs.

Thanks to the guys for allowing us women to rant. Indeed.

As for others in this thread who talk about women and family priorities– I think we can safely assume that men also set family as a priority–it’s just they don’t talk about it as much as the women do. It’s as if we feel we have to justify that we’re not neglecting our families. Or justify that we’re not contributing as much. No justification is needed.

What we should be doing is assuming that men and women both may have family priorities. Same as both men and women may not have these family priorities and can contribute technical assistance and writing, for which both deserve the same recognition.

Nothing big, about as relivent as the difference between using <abbr> or <acronym> for the term JPEG. But it does help to get a general concensus on things like this.

Eric didn’t edit down his list. He accurately reported who appeared in the comments and he raised the visibility of all those whose names appeared.

Okay, by this exceedingly small sample of an exceedingly small and new field, only 20% of the top 10 people voted best at CSS AND best at writing about it are women. But notice that there aren’t a whole lot more down in the “everyone mentioned” section. If she was interested, Eris could have gone and said “Not to toot my own horn too much, but I think I could do a good job of that.”

If other people aren’t handing the job to you and you want it, apply for it.

And why make the sexist assumption that the publisher making this hiring decision is male? Eric’s original post was carefully gender neutral and he wasn’t the judge here; anyone could have posted to that list. We drew a fair amount of attention to it, too.

Maybe there just aren’t yet a whole lot of women doing top-of-the-line CSS work who are good at writing about it and have the time and inclination to try to get to write a book about it. I don’t think there’s a gender conspiracy going on here. There are undeniable cultural issues surrounding women and recognition, but they are not insurmountable and they are going to be solved by productive change like these discussions sponsored by women and by men with the cajones to invite a bunch of irked women to rant all over their blogs (Thanks, guys!).

I suppose I wasn’t clear enough. ;) I certainly want to get ahead and I’ve certainly worked to that end (I don’t actually love writing like some. I do love teaching/helping and writing does get my name out there.) …

I suppose a clearer way to say it is that I’m getting ahead at the rate I can afford to do it… and keep my family priorities straight. My boys won’t be home much longer (I AM “that old”… LOL) and at the point that they fly the coop, I am prepared to be completely out of balance. (smile) I also have a husband that has been in the midst of a career change (which I’m very supportive of) and so, doing things to promote myself, which may not pay well, are really not as attractive to me now. Feeding the family is. ;)

That said, his new career is well nigh about to “happen” and so, I might even have a chance to redesign my own 2 year old site and refocus it in the direction I want to go (standards and such). I might even get a chance to take some time to “play” and create again… (I can dream!)

I don’t expect anything to “happen to me”… I will definitely make it happen. But I intend to continually prepare until I CAN make it happen. Thus my quote about “luck” — no such thing. (And yes, I believe that many men are somehow more prepared psychologically to self-promote.)

As to the issue of feeling worth your weight — I totally understand that. I think it’s highly common in women as a whole. Good for you for identifying it. My comment about not having a picture up was related to that very issue. (Remember, I’m old and thus have been through many permutations of “working on” issues. LOL) At that time, I wanted to prove myself — to MYSELF… as a person, not an attractive woman. I had other women laugh at me — literally. They told me (in their exact words), “If you’ve got it, flaunt it,” and, “do whatever works.” Sad that that’s how some think we should get ahead. And no, that doesn’t work for me.

Anyway Eris, you should feel confident and proud of your abilities. You’re very talented. Charge what you’re worth. Take no prisoners. ;)

spam alert: I ‘d better continue my rant elsewhere

I think that part of the problem is that we don’t understand or think like the opposite gender. That makes it difficult to come to a common ground. Just look at what married couples go through (http://www.marriagebuilders.com) to become more compatible. I don’t think that Doug is sexist, just that he gravitates torward what he knows. Maybe because it feels safer, you’ll have to ask Doug.

Maybe I gravitate to men more because it’s easier for me to communicate with my own gender. I’m not saying it’s right, it’s really wrong, it’s just the way it works and it isn’t fair.

What do you think?

And the beat goes on. These conversations happen again and again, but nothing seems to change.

Even if we were to have a blind contest of web designs, as long as the judges are all men, chances are a man will win. Why? Because a man tends to design for himself, and there are subtle gender differences in visual preferences. Doesn’t mean either is better or worse — but there differences. For instance, just from the web sites I’ve seen related to designers from this last week’s conversation, I find that men tend to be more anal in design, more constraining, and a bit more conservative. Women tend to open the box more — let the items on their page flow out to fill the page. But that could be just a coincidence.

But it does prove a point: there has to be a start made somewhere, a crack in the wall letting women into the top positions, the known position, the positions from which to judge. It would be nice to think this discussion might have led to this. Something positive to come out of these conversations.

But then I look at Eric’s list — all those guys– and I go over to Dave Shea’s and I compare the number of comments he gets per tweak compared to the number of comments per tweak for any number of women developers/designers I know — and I don’t see change happening. Even with these talks.

And this week, there will be all new memes to talk about, and this topic will fade away–until the next time someone asks, “Where are all the women…”

Judging from what you’ve said above, you’re stepping out of your zone. Most people don’t do that much.

(I’m also co-signing what Molly, Shelley, Sarah and Eris said.)

Maybe yes, maybe no, but I think you bring up a good point in that your priorities aren’t aimed at “getting ahead”. Maybe your perspective would be different if that was your priority? I’m not that old, but I would like to think that I’ve learned enough to know that opportunities don’t always just magically fall at our feet because of the good, hard work we do.

From my perspective, for the longest time I thought that if I produce good work, I’d get some notice for it; if I write some thought-provoking entries about being a web designer, I’d get some notice for it; if I create a PHP-based template generator that spits out standards-complaint code for multiple CMS’s, I’d get some notice for it. I would say to myself, “well, eris, you’re not getting noticed because obviously you aren’t good enough to warrant any recognition. So, okay, then I will work harder and get better.” And my thought-processes cycled like that for a very long time and it was rather discouraging.

Up until about 2 months ago I didn’t think I was any good at all. I thought I was a horrible designer, a joke of a designer. I didn’t think that I was even worth $20 an hour. Because, obviously, if I were good I would have been noticed. And then one day I’m talking to a fairly popular designer/blogger here in our sphere, debugging some stuff and cleaning up some css and he said to me, “You know, you should be bigger than I am.”

So, why wasn’t I? Because it’s not enough to just do your best. Self-promotion is still an issue I’m struggling with, I still have the habit of playing things down. Is this because of any ingrained gender issues? I think it is a valid factor, but maybe not a prime cause.

I know that a part of me will never think I’m good enough. But every now and then, a little notice goes a long way. And, I’d be the last person to want to admit to that.