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	<title>Comments on: MSN goes CSS</title>
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	<link>http://stopdesign.com/archive/2005/01/31/msn-goes-css.html</link>
	<description>Stopdesign is the creative outlet of Douglas Bowman.</description>
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		<title>By: tom sherman</title>
		<link>http://stopdesign.com/archive/2005/01/31/msn-goes-css.html#comment-2796</link>
		<dc:creator>tom sherman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Apr 2005 06:10:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.90.75/?p=245#comment-2796</guid>
		<description>#124: Just like Yahoo in 1999 couldn&#039;t be overtaken, right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#124: Just like Yahoo in 1999 couldn&#8217;t be overtaken, right?</p>
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		<title>By: Neil</title>
		<link>http://stopdesign.com/archive/2005/01/31/msn-goes-css.html#comment-2795</link>
		<dc:creator>Neil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Apr 2005 07:25:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.90.75/?p=245#comment-2795</guid>
		<description>LOL, I agree #125, Google is the best and will remain the best. #120 is being a little biased. I cant stand MSN Search... I just read this article about MSN having problems  with Homepage !!! Also, I think they copied Yahoo&#039;s New Navigation :P</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LOL, I agree #125, Google is the best and will remain the best. #120 is being a little biased. I cant stand MSN Search&#8230; I just read this article about MSN having problems  with Homepage !!! Also, I think they copied Yahoo&#8217;s New Navigation :P</p>
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		<title>By: Chongus</title>
		<link>http://stopdesign.com/archive/2005/01/31/msn-goes-css.html#comment-2794</link>
		<dc:creator>Chongus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Apr 2005 04:08:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.90.75/?p=245#comment-2794</guid>
		<description>pathetic, #120. Are you employed or paid by MSN Search&#039;s $20 mil marketing plan?

What a joke.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>pathetic, #120. Are you employed or paid by MSN Search&#8217;s $20 mil marketing plan?</p>
<p>What a joke.</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph</title>
		<link>http://stopdesign.com/archive/2005/01/31/msn-goes-css.html#comment-2793</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:10:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.90.75/?p=245#comment-2793</guid>
		<description>No Matter how much Microsoft Pays, Google will still dominate the entrance of the internet.

It&#039;s on Most peoples Home Page. Even if I want to type yahoo... my fingers type google before I think of it.

The New advertising of Media, has alot to do with your fingers being addicted to the same address...

I&#039;m Googly Hit!

Second of all, if Microsoft will continue to dominate, there will be almost no new companies emerging, and all going back to MS.

Oh By the way, you gotta check maps.google.com
Wow... Really well done!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No Matter how much Microsoft Pays, Google will still dominate the entrance of the internet.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s on Most peoples Home Page. Even if I want to type yahoo&#8230; my fingers type google before I think of it.</p>
<p>The New advertising of Media, has alot to do with your fingers being addicted to the same address&#8230;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m Googly Hit!</p>
<p>Second of all, if Microsoft will continue to dominate, there will be almost no new companies emerging, and all going back to MS.</p>
<p>Oh By the way, you gotta check maps.google.com<br />
Wow&#8230; Really well done!</p>
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		<title>By: Martin S.</title>
		<link>http://stopdesign.com/archive/2005/01/31/msn-goes-css.html#comment-2792</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:58:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.90.75/?p=245#comment-2792</guid>
		<description>By the way, &lt;a href=&quot;www.microsoft.com&quot; title=&quot;Microsoft.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Microsoft.com&lt;/a&gt; almost validates as HTML 4.0 transitional. Only three errors!

&lt;a href=&quot;http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.microsoft.com%2F&quot; title=&quot;Microsoft.com validation&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;microsoft.com validation&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, <a href="www.microsoft.com" title="Microsoft.com" rel="nofollow">Microsoft.com</a> almost validates as HTML 4.0 transitional. Only three errors!</p>
<p><a href="http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.microsoft.com%2F" title="Microsoft.com validation" rel="nofollow">microsoft.com validation</a></p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://stopdesign.com/archive/2005/01/31/msn-goes-css.html#comment-2791</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:20:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.90.75/?p=245#comment-2791</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Eg. on a given page, the center area might be the width of the page minus the width of the two sides, and the height will expand to fit the content as it is reflowed.&lt;/em&gt;

&lt;em&gt;Find a way to do that without tables in a way that works across all browsers, doesn&#8217;t require fixed-width or pixel-specified page layouts, and is not a completely ugly hack and win a prize.&lt;/em&gt;

The first has been done, by a number of people, for instance, that is if I understand what you are saying: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.jasonsantamaria.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.jasonsantamaria.com/ &lt;/a&gt; - beautiful, not hacked to death, works in the browsers I use beautifully.

However, you know on the second note, that no CSS layout will work across all existing browsers. Demanding such is relatively asinine, seeing that many browsers were developed prior to the existence of CSS. Additionally, many browsers don&#039;t process CSS correctly, and blaming that on CSS is like blaming Linux for not running natively on Windows.

Sounds to me like Simon merely doesn&#039;t like CSS because he can&#039;t develop in it well. If you are still using table based layouts predominantly, you might want to read &#8220;Who Moved My Cheese.&#8221;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Eg. on a given page, the center area might be the width of the page minus the width of the two sides, and the height will expand to fit the content as it is reflowed.</em></p>
<p><em>Find a way to do that without tables in a way that works across all browsers, doesn&rsquo;t require fixed-width or pixel-specified page layouts, and is not a completely ugly hack and win a prize.</em></p>
<p>The first has been done, by a number of people, for instance, that is if I understand what you are saying: <a href="http://www.jasonsantamaria.com/" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://www.jasonsantamaria.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.jasonsantamaria.com/</a>  &#8211; beautiful, not hacked to death, works in the browsers I use beautifully.</p>
<p>However, you know on the second note, that no CSS layout will work across all existing browsers. Demanding such is relatively asinine, seeing that many browsers were developed prior to the existence of CSS. Additionally, many browsers don&#8217;t process CSS correctly, and blaming that on CSS is like blaming Linux for not running natively on Windows.</p>
<p>Sounds to me like Simon merely doesn&#8217;t like CSS because he can&#8217;t develop in it well. If you are still using table based layouts predominantly, you might want to read &ldquo;Who Moved My Cheese.&rdquo;</p>
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		<title>By: Ed</title>
		<link>http://stopdesign.com/archive/2005/01/31/msn-goes-css.html#comment-2790</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Mar 2005 16:14:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.90.75/?p=245#comment-2790</guid>
		<description>Admirable as it may be, they still haven&#039;t gone all the way. How do you advocate CSS/WCAG etc, when designs are compromised. What was wrong with the original MSN design? Can it not be reproduced using CSS? What&#039;s with the pointless background switch?

I always get a whiff of rush when the mega sites change over to tableless designs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Admirable as it may be, they still haven&#8217;t gone all the way. How do you advocate CSS/WCAG etc, when designs are compromised. What was wrong with the original MSN design? Can it not be reproduced using CSS? What&#8217;s with the pointless background switch?</p>
<p>I always get a whiff of rush when the mega sites change over to tableless designs.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Watt</title>
		<link>http://stopdesign.com/archive/2005/01/31/msn-goes-css.html#comment-2789</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Watt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Mar 2005 17:48:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.90.75/?p=245#comment-2789</guid>
		<description>The New MSN Search looks really impressive with no errors now along with greatly improved search relevance.

Although MSN does&#039;nt provide very relevant results in one shot compared to google, but I believe that if we keep using MSN for a while and theres a definite increase in their demographics, that would encourage them to make MSN more Solid. I&#039;ve ditched google for the new MSN.

Moreover, If you take a close at Google&#039;s business strategies for 2004-2005, there are a lot of things which frightens me as a user. Google Sucks!

MSN SEARCH rocks! Learn it, live it, love it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The New MSN Search looks really impressive with no errors now along with greatly improved search relevance.</p>
<p>Although MSN does&#8217;nt provide very relevant results in one shot compared to google, but I believe that if we keep using MSN for a while and theres a definite increase in their demographics, that would encourage them to make MSN more Solid. I&#8217;ve ditched google for the new MSN.</p>
<p>Moreover, If you take a close at Google&#8217;s business strategies for 2004-2005, there are a lot of things which frightens me as a user. Google Sucks!</p>
<p>MSN SEARCH rocks! Learn it, live it, love it.</p>
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		<title>By: tom sherman</title>
		<link>http://stopdesign.com/archive/2005/01/31/msn-goes-css.html#comment-2788</link>
		<dc:creator>tom sherman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Mar 2005 05:50:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.90.75/?p=245#comment-2788</guid>
		<description>For everyone here that&#039;s whined about validation errors (Zeldman impressions are soooo 2001), &lt;a href=&quot;http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;try validating Google.com&lt;/a&gt;.  OMFG, 49 errors, the world is gonna end!  Google doesn&#039;t care about web standards!  Stock up on canned goods!

Or just search.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For everyone here that&#8217;s whined about validation errors (Zeldman impressions are soooo 2001), <a href="http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com" rel="nofollow">try validating Google.com</a>.  OMFG, 49 errors, the world is gonna end!  Google doesn&#8217;t care about web standards!  Stock up on canned goods!</p>
<p>Or just search.</p>
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		<title>By: Dustin Diaz</title>
		<link>http://stopdesign.com/archive/2005/01/31/msn-goes-css.html#comment-2787</link>
		<dc:creator>Dustin Diaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:22:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.90.75/?p=245#comment-2787</guid>
		<description>Hehe. I guess Mike gave a pretty solid critique #107.

It&#039;s the fact that the errors are low and it&#039;s displaying good in virtually all browsers for the most part.

So I too agree. Code = good. Design = Bad. And maybe bad is a little harsh. Being cooporate makes it harder to do what you want. You have to take into account ads, super flexibility, and being very neutral. Afterall, the usability was probably their main goal for the redesign.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hehe. I guess Mike gave a pretty solid critique #107.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s the fact that the errors are low and it&#8217;s displaying good in virtually all browsers for the most part.</p>
<p>So I too agree. Code = good. Design = Bad. And maybe bad is a little harsh. Being cooporate makes it harder to do what you want. You have to take into account ads, super flexibility, and being very neutral. Afterall, the usability was probably their main goal for the redesign.</p>
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		<title>By: Mads Foersom</title>
		<link>http://stopdesign.com/archive/2005/01/31/msn-goes-css.html#comment-2786</link>
		<dc:creator>Mads Foersom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:43:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.90.75/?p=245#comment-2786</guid>
		<description>I think the reason to why the new MSN-site &lt;strong&gt;almost&lt;/strong&gt; validates, it is not because of a mind-change at the MSN-website department, but more likely because of the tool used to create the site.

As you may or may not know, the next version of Visual Studio .NET, used to create ASP.NET web-applications, is currently in beta, and renders fully standards compliant markup by default -- unlike the current version. Microsoft is probably already using this beta for its own websites.

Just my 2 cents...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the reason to why the new MSN-site <strong>almost</strong> validates, it is not because of a mind-change at the MSN-website department, but more likely because of the tool used to create the site.</p>
<p>As you may or may not know, the next version of Visual Studio .NET, used to create ASP.NET web-applications, is currently in beta, and renders fully standards compliant markup by default &#8212; unlike the current version. Microsoft is probably already using this beta for its own websites.</p>
<p>Just my 2 cents&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Victoria</title>
		<link>http://stopdesign.com/archive/2005/01/31/msn-goes-css.html#comment-2785</link>
		<dc:creator>Victoria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Feb 2005 20:24:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.90.75/?p=245#comment-2785</guid>
		<description>In my opinion, they did nothing but make look scarier. I still use google,even though I have MSN. MSN search is slow and I never get results I like!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my opinion, they did nothing but make look scarier. I still use google,even though I have MSN. MSN search is slow and I never get results I like!</p>
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		<title>By: Kirti</title>
		<link>http://stopdesign.com/archive/2005/01/31/msn-goes-css.html#comment-2784</link>
		<dc:creator>Kirti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Feb 2005 23:37:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.90.75/?p=245#comment-2784</guid>
		<description>Sorry Matthew.
I am happy to report that MSN has now fixed the MAC/IE problem.
The MSN homepage now RENDERS in MAC/IE.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry Matthew.<br />
I am happy to report that MSN has now fixed the MAC/IE problem.<br />
The MSN homepage now RENDERS in MAC/IE.</p>
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		<title>By: richard dows</title>
		<link>http://stopdesign.com/archive/2005/01/31/msn-goes-css.html#comment-2783</link>
		<dc:creator>richard dows</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Feb 2005 16:52:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.90.75/?p=245#comment-2783</guid>
		<description>You would think that the MSN boys and girls would at least be able to fix their &quot;target&quot; attributes with a little onclick manipulation. How much do they pay these people?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You would think that the MSN boys and girls would at least be able to fix their &#8220;target&#8221; attributes with a little onclick manipulation. How much do they pay these people?</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://stopdesign.com/archive/2005/01/31/msn-goes-css.html#comment-2782</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:15:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.90.75/?p=245#comment-2782</guid>
		<description>It looks really weird centered, especially because they havent got a left/right border. Still a horribly organised and designed site ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It looks really weird centered, especially because they havent got a left/right border. Still a horribly organised and designed site ;)</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Cooke</title>
		<link>http://stopdesign.com/archive/2005/01/31/msn-goes-css.html#comment-2781</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Cooke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Feb 2005 04:00:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.90.75/?p=245#comment-2781</guid>
		<description>Again, Richard, please, why don&#039;t you go ahead and come up with a way of doing border layouts without making them fixed width with CSS before you knock table layouts.

Your mission - should you choose to accept it - is to come up with a way of laying out text such that you can place fixed width/height elements at the corners of a DIV, fixed height repeating horizontally tiled elements at the top and bottom center position, and fixed width repeating vertically tiled elements at the left and right center positions. The center position must be filled by content, and the overall width and height of the DIV will be determined by whatever dimensions are necessary to fit the content into the display.

Eg. on a given page, the center area might be the width of the page minus the width of the two sides, and the height will expand to fit the content as it is reflowed.

Find a way to do that without tables in a way that works across all browsers, doesn&#039;t require fixed-width or pixel-specified page layouts, and is not a completely ugly hack and win a prize.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Again, Richard, please, why don&#8217;t you go ahead and come up with a way of doing border layouts without making them fixed width with CSS before you knock table layouts.</p>
<p>Your mission &#8211; should you choose to accept it &#8211; is to come up with a way of laying out text such that you can place fixed width/height elements at the corners of a DIV, fixed height repeating horizontally tiled elements at the top and bottom center position, and fixed width repeating vertically tiled elements at the left and right center positions. The center position must be filled by content, and the overall width and height of the DIV will be determined by whatever dimensions are necessary to fit the content into the display.</p>
<p>Eg. on a given page, the center area might be the width of the page minus the width of the two sides, and the height will expand to fit the content as it is reflowed.</p>
<p>Find a way to do that without tables in a way that works across all browsers, doesn&#8217;t require fixed-width or pixel-specified page layouts, and is not a completely ugly hack and win a prize.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Acosta</title>
		<link>http://stopdesign.com/archive/2005/01/31/msn-goes-css.html#comment-2780</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Acosta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Feb 2005 21:49:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.90.75/?p=245#comment-2780</guid>
		<description>I think it&#039;s good that big sites comply to at least some standards. I&#039;ve seen many newbie web designers using the excuse &quot;Well, all the most popular sites are doing it this way&quot; for using table-based layouts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s good that big sites comply to at least some standards. I&#8217;ve seen many newbie web designers using the excuse &#8220;Well, all the most popular sites are doing it this way&#8221; for using table-based layouts.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew</title>
		<link>http://stopdesign.com/archive/2005/01/31/msn-goes-css.html#comment-2779</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:11:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.90.75/?p=245#comment-2779</guid>
		<description>I, for one, am glad that the new MSN site doesn&#039;t support IE/Mac users.  I offer computer maintenance work to people in my community for both Mac and PC users.  MSN being a common homepage for many people, several IE/Mac users are suddenly discovering that IE/Mac is a pile of garbage and they&#039;re finally beginning to listen to me when I tell them to switch to a more competent browser.

So, raise your glass high and cheers to MSN for helping me convert my local IE/Mac users to Firefox at long last!  CHEERS!!!

It&#039;s a fine example of positive impact being drawn from pure stupidity and/or negligence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I, for one, am glad that the new MSN site doesn&#8217;t support IE/Mac users.  I offer computer maintenance work to people in my community for both Mac and PC users.  MSN being a common homepage for many people, several IE/Mac users are suddenly discovering that IE/Mac is a pile of garbage and they&#8217;re finally beginning to listen to me when I tell them to switch to a more competent browser.</p>
<p>So, raise your glass high and cheers to MSN for helping me convert my local IE/Mac users to Firefox at long last!  CHEERS!!!</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a fine example of positive impact being drawn from pure stupidity and/or negligence.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Purvis</title>
		<link>http://stopdesign.com/archive/2005/01/31/msn-goes-css.html#comment-2778</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Purvis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:15:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.90.75/?p=245#comment-2778</guid>
		<description>Just wanted to drop a line to all you validation-happy individuals: The document IS valid XML. The only errors (when I last checked) were &#039;non-existent tags&#039;. Well, while that doesn&#039;t meet the arbitrary XHTML standard, it doesn&#039;t prevent it from meeting the XML standard.

The homepage is ready to syndicate, or whatever it is you do with XML...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just wanted to drop a line to all you validation-happy individuals: The document IS valid XML. The only errors (when I last checked) were &#8216;non-existent tags&#8217;. Well, while that doesn&#8217;t meet the arbitrary XHTML standard, it doesn&#8217;t prevent it from meeting the XML standard.</p>
<p>The homepage is ready to syndicate, or whatever it is you do with XML&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: David Elstob</title>
		<link>http://stopdesign.com/archive/2005/01/31/msn-goes-css.html#comment-2777</link>
		<dc:creator>David Elstob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:03:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.90.75/?p=245#comment-2777</guid>
		<description>Full marks to the big M for starting to think in terms in XHTML and CSS.

The design may not be that inspiring but how many of us look back at our first standards based designs and cringe?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Full marks to the big M for starting to think in terms in XHTML and CSS.</p>
<p>The design may not be that inspiring but how many of us look back at our first standards based designs and cringe?</p>
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